Trying to grasp the uncanny synchronicity of the global response to the Covid pandemic, Dr. Robert Malone, a highly regarded biodefense expert and one of the original inventors of the mRNA vaccine platform, came to the conclusion that it could not be accidental. The information received from multiple insider sources, fortified by numerous pieces of situational evidence, made Dr. Malone conclude that the mastermind behind the pandemic was the U.S. intelligence community, driven by the pursuit of the authoritarian “New Normal” so alien to the interests of everyday people around the world.

On July 31, The New American interviewed Dr. Robert Malone at his residence in Madison, Virginia. We talked to him about the role of the intelligence community, particularly the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and its surrogates, in the biowarfare programs, their peculiar collaboration with the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) at the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), and the possible explanations of their motivation, which arguably stems from the population-control and financial interests of the global oligarchy.

The following is a condensed version of our discussion with him. The extended transcripts of the two-part interview are available at rwmalonemd.substack.com. The full interview is available at TheNewAmerican.com on two videos under the umbrella title “Puppet Masters of the Pandemic” (Part 1 here). This interview was conducted by senior editor Veronika Kyrylenko.

The New American: While speaking with Steve Bannon [recently], you said, quoting your sources from inside the CIA, “Clearly the United States intelligence community was at the heart of this whole Covid crisis, working together with the CCP throughout this entire affair.” What role, exactly, did our intelligence community play before and during the pandemic?

Dr. Robert Malone: When I speak of the intelligence community, it’s a very broad spectrum of capabilities that includes the Department of Defense activities under Tony Fauci, as it also includes the NIH [biodefense research activities]. And then, it’s even larger than that because of the Five Eyes Alliance. So this is Great Britain, Canada, the U.S., Australia, and New Zealand; all the lockdown countries that have been perhaps most aggressive in their propaganda, use of fifth-generation warfare, censorship, retaliation against civilian populations, et cetera.

So when I speak of the intelligence community, I’m really talking about a matrix of global capabilities that knowledgeable people within my sphere argue is the most powerful organization on earth. That currently, full stop, has amazing global reach. 

What has been their role throughout this Covid crisis? And as you know, this has been a journey that I’ve been on.

There are some things that have really bothered me all the way through this. One was having the opportunity to hear and interact directly with Michael Callahan early on in the outbreak. Michael Callahan is a retired CIA officer who was at DARPA [and] was a program officer responsible for a lot of the modern biologics programs. DARPA, [the] Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, is the operational developmental arm of the CIA.

So to recap, Callahan gave me a call on January 2 of 2020, in which he told me that this [corona]virus, while he was in Wuhan at the time, looked like a real threat. That it had emerged into the population in Wuhan and that I should get the people that I’ve been associated with loosely activated and focused on trying to come up with potential solutions for this in terms of medical countermeasures — drugs or vaccines — for this new coronavirus.

I had downloaded this “Wuhan seafood market virus” sequence from the NIH sequence database as soon as it was released, which I think was January 10 or January 11, and started working on modeling x-ray crystallography based on that sequence, et cetera, so we could work on computational drug discovery. And I had a series of conversations with Michael on and off.

In February 2020, I challenged him, “Michael, this seems like it was an engineered virus that came from the laboratory, this laboratory, the Wuhan Institute.” 

And his response was quite literally, “My people have been all over this sequence and there’s absolutely no evidence that it was engineered, okay?”

So I took that to mean his colleagues at DARPA or the CIA had analyzed the sequence and there was no evidence that it had the classic hallmarks of recombinant DNA, which would be restriction enzyme ligation sites that are very easy to find, standard algorithms.

And I took that as gospel. I said, “Okay, Michael, therefore it must be.” Over time, it’s become clear as the information has come out that what was used in engineering viruses, coronaviruses, at WIV was a technology that had been transferred apparently through Ralph Baric and EcoHealth Alliance into WIV. This technology transfer allowed the engineering of novel sequences or the manipulation of a viral backbone sequence without creating the hallmarks of classic recombinant DNA. 

Ground zero: the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) conducted risky dual-use research on bat coronaviruses with technology and funding provided by the United States in a quid-pro-quo deal with the CCP. (AP Images)

TNA: What was going on in Wuhan?

Dr. Malone: My understanding of all of this is that coronaviruses were identified as a suitable platform for engineering biowarfare agents quite a long time ago. Coronaviruses were one of the high-profile targets for engineering for biowarfare purposes.

And you can turn that around because ... in this space, they use the language of what’s called dual-function, or dual-use research, for war or for peace. The first meaning of dual-use describes technologies that can have both military and civilian uses. For example, technologies useful in industry or agriculture can also be used to create chemical weapons.

The preponderance of evidence is that it was engineered, that it was engineered with the cooperation of EcoHealth Alliance, that there was a close operational collaboration between Ralph Baric’s group and the woman commonly referred to as the “bat lady” at the WIV, that a series of mutants were generated. Those mutant viruses were then passaged, and part of this involved humanized mice. 

There is a case to be made that dual-use research is justified as basically something akin to the mutually assured destruction argument between government and non-government entities engaged in bioweapons development. The other guy is doing it, so we have to do it because we don’t want to be left behind technologically.

The [purported] underpinning logic of EcoHealth Alliance and what was being done was revealed in the DARPA grant application that Project Veritas captured so long ago that most people have forgotten about it. The tortured logic was that EcoHealth Alliance would engineer viruses that would be more highly infectious and pathogenic in humans, then attenuate them, but enable them to be more highly infectious in bats and deploy them into bat caves to infect the bats with these modified engineered viruses so that the bats would mount an immune response against those parts of the viruses that would make them more pathogenic in humans. This is very upside-down logic.

TNA: What were Michael Callahan and other CIA assets doing in Wuhan?

Dr. Malone: So Callahan has used his position at Harvard, that’s his cover. And Harvard Medical School has a reciprocal arrangement with a university that’s basically across the river from Wuhan, and he was there under that cover. And he had extremely detailed information about the Chinese investment and capabilities as it related to biosurveillance, particularly coronaviruses. He had details that he shared with me about the number of PCR machines and the testing protocols and capabilities that the Chinese government had. When he went there, he cited a National Geographic article by Brendan Borrell. He discusses that he arrives and is put into the same hotel room that he used to always get put into when he was with the agency. So clearly, they know who he is and why he’s there. What happens is that they allow him into the main hospital on an observer basis for a day to observe how they’re treating these respiratory cases, which of course is this aggressive ventilation that has been responsible for so much death throughout Europe, particularly Italy and the United States. So they show him how they’re managing Covid. He ostensibly is consulting and then, according to the Borrell articles, he goes back, I guess, to the university environment, where he has some friends or contacts and is allowed to Skype in on a daily basis for a while as they are discussing the Chinese physicians, discussing the management of these various cases.

Then he tells me that he directly managed something like 600 SARS-CoV-2 patients in Wuhan. And this is in January 2020. That’s a functional impossibility. It was a lie, but he used it — he leveraged this lie to establish himself as the leading expert in the management of SARS-CoV-2 in the United States. By the way, through all of this, he’s reporting directly to Bob Kadlec, who was the assistant secretary of preparedness and response, and, I believe, has deep intelligence community ties.

The intelligence community is [involved] throughout this entire enterprise and has been since Operation Paperclip, when we imported Japanese and German biowarfare experts to come to Fort Detrick and found our biodefense/biowarfare program. They were imported directly for this purpose. So that’s the origin of the whole biodefense enterprise. 

My understanding is that the amount of capital invested in our biowarfare program exceeded the amount invested in our nuclear warfare program.

We have Callahan lying about a whole series of things that, when you look at the lies, really reveal a deep, intimate knowledge of the whole situation at Wuhan and an intimate knowledge of what the Chinese government did, what the CCP did in response to the entry of the virus into the human population. That’s a way we can phrase that without committing to whether it was a lab leak or otherwise.

TNA: Was it not? Usually, when we discuss the release of the Covid virus, SARS-CoV-2, we refer to that as a leak, which suggests that it was accidental, but how do we know that it wasn’t?

Dr. Malone: We don’t. What I am understanding, and again, I have to caution everything, because we’re in an environment in which disinformation is being actively deployed. So, it’s really difficult to sort out what is disinformation — intentional propaganda — and what is reality.

We just get into a very fuzzy domain in terms of science, much of which is not published, so we can’t really assess it. So, we have Callahan there with intimate details being brought in by the CCP in a very limited and strange way, allowed to assimilate information about their treatment protocols and processes and bring that, import that, back into the United States. We also know through a variety of other sources that we had individuals in the White House and in the national security apparatus that were receiving information directly from Wuhan physicians in parallel that we now recognize as propaganda. And we had these concerted propaganda campaigns — it’s unclear from whom — about people dying in the streets in Wuhan and the buildout of the hospital.

You remember the rapid buildout of the hospital, so [the] whole origin of the virus is shrouded in propaganda. So why would the intelligence community have this footprint and intimate knowledge and awareness — situational awareness — of what’s going on at the WIV? That’s been an outstanding question.

TNA: And then trying to suppress it.

Dr. Malone: And actively trying to suppress it. That’s some of the newer information. And that information comes to me from multiple sources.

The thesis that’s been floated repeatedly to me by insiders is that the human intelligence assets that the CIA had in China relating to their bioengineering and biowarfare programs were identified apparently because of a mole in the United States and were all eliminated. In other words, they were all killed, and it happened a few years ago before this. I’ve known that the CIA had a variety of different sources of intelligence regarding infectious disease in China for [many] years, and these assets were no longer there. They knew that China was actively advancing a variety of different biowarfare capabilities, programmatic capabilities, and they had no eyes on it. 

So there is this threat-mitigation branch within DoD/DTRA, which works on both nuclear threats and biologic threats, and originally, DTRA had denied that they had anything to do with funding the WIV, but then it was shared with me by someone within DTRA, whom I asked specifically to find out about this, that yes, in fact, the threat-mitigation branch in DTRA had been funding the WIV.

The logic was that this was being done so that scientists at the WIV would not have financial incentives to go rogue, just as the logic had been with the former Soviet scientists in the nuclear programs. Now, at face value, that fails plausibility, because if you think about it, pretty much everybody in the medical-scientific complex within China, including the foreigners that come into the United States for postgraduate training, et cetera, are all tightly linked to the CCP. They will be taken out if they go off the reservation. So this was the [apparently fake] storyline that was provided to my colleague was that we were doing this funding.

[The other reason given was] that DTRA was gathering intelligence. So that was the first time that I became aware that there was U.S. activity involving capitalizing on the WIV and specific scientists in order to gather intelligence and build relationships with those scientists. Then, as time has gone by, I’ve heard this story in different versions from different people, and what comes out of all of that is that, again and again, the CIA had lost its human intelligence eyes within the CCP on their biowarfare training programs and that a decision had been made to engage in a quid-pro-quo relationship with the CCP through the WIV, in which there would be a certain amount of technology transfer and funding.

So it appears that what happened was that through EcoHealth Alliance, there was financial and organizational support from the intelligence community, DTRA, USAID, and NIAID.

There was funding for research at WIV, together with technology transfer and the specific support of individuals within WIV to engage in engineering of mutant coronaviruses, and that’s now pretty well documented.

Why would they be doing this? Apparently, it was all because of the potential upside of at least limited intelligence concerning the capabilities of the CCP in engineering biopathogens, but the paradox is that we’re enabling that and providing technology transfer to enable it and advance that technology of our opponent.

TNA: China is labeled in official United States documents as the greatest geopolitical threat. And yet, here we are, transferring down technology.

Dr. Malone: Absolutely, and we have these various statements from Fauci, Collins, and others that were involved. In particular, this scientist from Scripps, Dutch scientist Kristian Andersen. This was the individual that had written one of the early essays, discounting advancing the natural origin and discounting the lab leak but had previously been a fan of the lab-leak hypothesis, and then somehow was turned around and had a large pending grant with Tony Fauci at the time. In this dialogue, there are statements to the effect that we have to protect the Chinese, and this was part of the core logic.

The “new normal”: Communist China is regarded as an exemplary system by the global “elites.” Pandemic policies were a part of establishing a CCP-like system on a global scale. (AP Images)

TNA: To protect ourselves.

Dr. Malone: Bingo. So then you factor in all these things and then you factor in the fact that we saw a global propaganda campaign, the likes of which the world has never seen before, deployed in a harmonized fashion through the press and everything else, the distribution of massive capital-funding globally to buy influencers in a harmonized, simultaneous fashion. 

It’s really hard to imagine an organization, even the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, even the World Health Organization or the WEF, having the necessary power and coordination skills to pull this off. I just couldn’t wrap my head around the possibility that any one of those organizations, let alone the central banks, had that much power. 

Then, a close colleague of mine who actually employs a former director of the CIA talks about this from time to time, discussing who is the puppet master. What’s behind all this? We had a discussion in which he related a conversation with his employee regarding the global power and reach of the CIA, in which the former [CIA director] concluded that the CIA was currently the most powerful organization in the world, perhaps the most powerful global organization in human history. This is one of those things I haven’t wanted to believe. Why would any American citizen want to believe that their country was intimately involved in potentially driving this whole Covid crisis? And yet I keep seeing signs of our intelligence community and particularly the Five Eyes alliance [with intelligence agency GCHQ in the U.K.] being deeply involved and appearing to be the primary driver. They planned [the Fifth Generation psy-ops] out during Event 201, which was sponsored by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Maybe that’s why that all happened.

TNA: And also by the WHO and Johns Hopkins University.

Dr. Malone: Right, Johns Hopkins has … a longstanding affiliation with the CIA. 

The CIA is an organization that would have the capability to deploy this. This is an organization that did found the WEF. This is an organization that was intimately involved in what was going on at the WIV. This is an organization that, through its former employee [and still intimately integrated] Dr. Michael Callahan, was busy spreading disinformation to me in real time. And then I’ve had various third parties come to me and share various information about what they’ve observed within “the agency.” That’s what finally led me to the tipping point of coming to the conclusion that I couldn’t explain the cascade of events any other way, other than by concluding that our intelligence community and the extended Five Eyes alliance were at the center of all of this.

TNA: If so, what were they trying to accomplish?

Dr. Malone: I’ve just gone through basically hypothesis testing and what are the data supporting it. And now you’re asking me about motivation, which I always resist, but I’m going to speculate.

Number one: One of the things that is true about the modern intelligence community, the CIA, is [that it is] hyper-compartmentalized. We have bureaucracies, administrative groups within this structure that are semi-autonomous, and even more so because of In-Q-Tel. It is a fact that the CIA through DARPA created Moderna. In-Q-Tel continues to capitalize the development and deployment of mRNA vaccines. The mRNA vaccine technology is intimately linked to the intelligence community. For whatever reason, they have selected this as their horse that they’re going to ride for medical countermeasure development and rapid response.

TNA: All mRNA vaccines or only Moderna?

Dr. Malone: All mRNA vaccines. And I know from other colleagues that have contacted me during this outbreak [who] sat on the management committee for Moderna for Operation Warp Speed, that it was not Moderna managing that product. It was the U.S. government/DoD managing that product development. 

We had the government directly involved in managing the development of the Moderna products. We had the CIA through DARPA, funding Moderna directly. They seeded it. We have In-Q-Tel, the largely autonomous venture capital arm of the CIA. They’ve got so much cash, they don’t really need a government budget anymore to do whatever they want to do. This gets to the point of how powerful the CIA is.

It is largely and increasingly autonomous from the federal budget and certainly autonomous from congressional oversight because a lot of this is hidden in the dark budget. When we talk about the administrative state, it isn’t just an ethereal buzzword or slang that one throws around because it’s convenient and it gets people excited. It is an actual thing.

They have their own flag. [There are some 7,000] people that are the permanent bureaucracy that run the government. The Senior Executive Service really runs the government. The president doesn’t. The Senior Executive Service and a lot of these administrators see elected politicians, including the president, as “temporary government employees.” 

What we have seen over the last three years is the fusion of the federal bureaucracy and the intelligence community. 

Of course, it’s really gone on steroids under the Biden administration, with the executive branch directly intervening with the media and social media to promote their approved narrative and suppress alternative narratives, which is really what the censorship is. That’s where we’re at, we really do have a rogue administration, a rogue nation state, and we absolutely have a rogue intelligence community, which, for whatever reason, believes that it’s in its global geopolitical interests to cooperate with the CCP in this area of biowarfare technology development. This appeared to have happened at WIV. We’ve got multiple lines of evidence.

TNA: Who did they intend to use this biotechnology against if we are geopolitical enemies? To me, it looks like this virus was developed to be deployed against all of us.

Dr. Malone: When you get down to the why, all you can do is speculate because we don’t have any direct evidence. That’s why this recent essay that we put out had a deep dive into the Kissinger Report and subsequent national security directives from Gerald Ford and multiple other memos that establish depopulation as a U.S. government priority, capping global population at eight billion, which we almost hit in 2020, a coincidence at best. 

That’s one example of a possible agenda, and it’s one that many people have speculated about throughout this, that this was really about a depopulation agenda. I can’t say that it was about a depopulation agenda, an economic agenda, or something else.

Overpopulation: The official U.S. government policy put in place by Henry Kissinger and Gerald Ford in 1974 aims at capping the global population at eight billion, which we almost hit in 2020. (Connel_Design/iStock/Getty Images Plus)

TNA: But none of those are mutually exclusive.

Dr. Malone: None of them are mutually exclusive, and I can say we now have the evidence to say that.

We’ve seen that governments are quite willing to get into a private-public partnership, a corporatist relationship, which I argue is the essence of what true fascism is, involving governments all over the world. Furthermore, these pharmaceutical companies, in some cases, will act rather aggressively to promote their own interests above and beyond the interests of the populace or the government they’re ostensibly serving. We see that with these various contracts that were set up by Pfizer, in which nation-states had to promise not to release testing and other characterizations or share data about the effectiveness or toxicity of the products under the risk of losing national assets like airports and harbors to Pfizer. This is incredible, and Pfizer did this through the weaponization of fear.

The other thing is that you had this conversion of interest between pharma and whatever this global entity is, which I assert is the U.S. Intelligence Community, to deploy fear-based propaganda in order to advance what arguably was a public-health agenda. This was enormously profitable. It resulted in increased dependency of many nation-states around the world on the national security apparatus of the United States.

TNA: Do you see any conceivable way in which its unconstitutional reign can be stopped?

Dr. Malone: There were reforms previously that ostensibly took some of the CIA’s power and put it into this Director of National Intelligence and kind of the broader scope of the intelligence gathering operations, which cuts across DoD and civilian intelligence. It used to be that the intelligence community was forbidden from acting domestically, but now those handcuffs are off, plus they can act through surrogates. 

My thesis is that these various administrative groups are semi-autonomous and busy vying for capital and trying to grow their programs organically. 

The starting point has to be the American people coming to the conclusion that they’ve had enough. I can’t see anything happening without a preponderance of force of will on the part of the citizenry, and that is part of the problem.

That’s why I think the fifth-generation warfare threat is so important. The technology for manipulating information and thought is so comprehensive now. Fifth-generation warfare that was developed for offshore combat has been deployed against the citizenry. This means that the whole concept of personal sovereignty and autonomy of individual citizens in an electorate is obsolete.

How can you, as a citizen of the United States, effectively come to independent conclusions about what’s right or wrong, or how the government should or should not be behaving? How can you come to any autonomous conclusion about what should be done?

TNA: The world that they are trying to build for us is not a cozy place, is it?

Dr. Malone: Yes. As George Orwell said, “If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.” I don’t want to sound so grim, but it’s not a pretty picture. It absolutely has to do with information control, artificial intelligence, this transhumanist agenda.... All these things all come together in this central group of issues that have to do with control, controlled populations and controlled behavior. It’s basically the CCP model applied to the West. 

The whole thing is just a political nightmare, ethically. We have taken realpolitik, which Kissinger and Brzezinski were the main champions of, and normalized it as the ethic of the American imperial state. That is, we will do anything in order to advance the economic interests of the state. Really, when you look below the covers, the truth is that these public-private partnerships and the globalized economic activity are not benefiting the American citizen. The poor folks in the “flyover states” that used to build things, work the land, have farms, and be productive have been decimated economically by these policies. These policies are advancing the interests of a very small fraction of the population, which happens to no longer believe in the nation-state.

We call them globalists, and their financial organizations are BlackRock, State Street, Vanguard, et cetera. We can go down the list [to see] where these large “passive” investment funds are. They are extracting capital from different nation-states, including the United States, and pulling it into funds that are no longer coupled to the source nation-state. Basically, if you’re going to [use] the language of Marx, the surplus value is being extracted from the nation-states and their populations, then consolidated into these very large funds and their owners.

I think the Covid crisis and the mismanagement of the Covid crisis [make] that really, really clear. You ask, what is the agenda of the CIA? Is the CIA still representing the interests of the American public? I don’t think it is. I think it represents the interests of this global oligarchy.